VCUKI: Sarah you have lots of exciting projects going on. I’m amazed at all of the different aspects of your life, and we do want to find out more about your latest project – the book, The Deliverer Has Come, but let’s start with how you have ended up where you are now. You’re not from Scotland and yet you’re in Aberdeen. You’re in Catalyst vineyard. How did you get there? Where have you come from? Give us some background.
Sarah: How do I answer this succinctly, so, I came to Scotland to study, but the journey of that was before I left for Scotland to study, I was the associate National Director of evangelism for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. I was a resource specialist and I was doing that when a lot of difficult stuff started happening in the states surrounding race, protests and Black Lives Matter. And working with students and universities you don’t really have a choice to be silent. So, I basically ended up writing a book, because I have a lot of background in secular policy and ideas, as well as theology. So, I took on a role to develop more resources and by the time I left the States, I was on a plane every other week. I was in so many different parts of the country with people that really wanted to talk about faith and Scripture and justice, and particularly as it relates to ethnicity and race. So, I came out with a book in 2017 with InterVarsity press called Beyond Colorblind. That led to more travelling around the country and as I did I met so many pastors who had multiple seminary degrees but didn’t know how to talk about what was going on. And for me, I felt like part of it was that we needed more than what we have in theological education. I felt like I was putting a bandaid on gaping wounds. And I really care about the church being the church and being a witness, and so I think after the 50th, 60th, pastor where I could see the same situation of them not knowing what to do but I knew that the heart was there I was like: ‘okay, I have holy discontent Lord.’ I wanted to help but what I was doing felt like a band aid for a much bigger problem. At the time we were pregnant and my husband said to me, “You’ve always mentioned Scotland…I think we should pray about it.” He encouraged me to email a professor at St. Andrews. Long story short, they responded. I moved with my husband and daughter to St.Andrews, to study, and then Aberdeen to start my PhD as COVID hit. So, that’s a very long answer but it was because I really care about the church living out its mission and its context, and I felt like we need better theology that talks about how God’s reconciling with us on the cross actually informs how we reconcile with other people. But there was a gap I was seeing on the ground constantly, and that’s what my thesis was about. So, that’s how I ended up in Scotland.
VCUKI: That’s amazing. So, you came to study in Scotland and now you’ve just finished your PhD, which is huge. Would you like to briefly tell us what your thesis was?
Sarah: Yeah, my thesis was on the atonement. And I chose that because I think whatever we believe about God’s atonement with us at the Cross impacts how we talk about how humans reconcile with each other in Jesus name. So, in my thesis I was addressing that using two biblical ideas, the kin Redeemer. And you hear about that in Ruth, where Boaz is called the kin Redeemer, yeah. And also the Jubilee.
And so the coming of the Messiah is, the eschatological Jubilee. I was looking at Old Testament scholars, looking at New Testament research, and I kind of developed an account of How does Jesus’ willing sacrifice actually bring about victory over the enemy, over Satan, sin, death.
“I really care about the church living out its mission and its context, and I felt like we need better theology that talks about how God’s reconciling with us on the cross actually informs how we reconcile with other people.”
And then, how does God actually continue to deliver us so he delivers us from sin, right? How does the Holy Spirit continue to lead us in the church, in living out that victory, and also pursuing the Jubilee with Jew and Gentile. What does that mean about the spirit, you know, how do I have a Trinitarian response to what I believe God does? What do I believe that God continues to do? What does it mean for the church to participate in it? And I’m thinking about the pastor on the ground. I’m not thinking about just the conversation that stays in academic halls. I was writing for the pastor who needs to teach scripture.
VCUKI: That’s amazing! That leads us on quite nicely to talk about WTC. Obviously, WTC Theology is really passionate about theologically equipping the whole church, making theology accessible and part of that is serving the pastors on the ground. You are a lecturer at WTC Theology. Tell us what you teach at WTC.
Sarah: Yeah, so I just teach one module. I taught it last year, and I’m teaching again this year, and when they asked me to teach this module, I kind of started laughing, because it was the only course I’d be willing to teach while still finishing my PhD. I teach charismatic evangelism and church planting. I think maybe they might be moving more towards charismatic mission, evangelism, mission. Because, as you know, people at WTC, they’re not all church planters. And so one of the things that I helped oversee when I was part of university was planting ministry. If there’s a church planting book, in the States, I’ve probably seen it, skimmed it, read it. I know how fast it changes. I know the attrition rates. I know the number one reason why missionaries leave the field is because of interpersonal conflict.
“When I think about what WTC offers and what the Vineyard UK and Ireland also have to bring, that pairing feels like this real sweet spot, you know?”
So, I know a lot of the things that you might need, and then integrating that with the Spirit’s leading. I just really loved teaching my class and teaching people in ministry. They asked the right questions. I’m not interested in the abstract. I know you need to sometimes know the answers to abstract questions, but unless it hits the ground eventually – I just want to know how this impacts the church.
VCUKI: Sounds great. One more WTC question, as someone who’s part of a Vineyard Church and also part of the faculty at WTC, what excites you about the WTC and vineyard churches partnership?
Sarah: I really believe in teaching that integrates what you learn in theory with practice. WTC really gives you that. And so when I think about what Vineyard offers, which is often a space where you get to experience the Spirit, where you’re doing evangelism, where you’re caring for the poor. There’s so many things that you’re doing, but then to have theological training and support as part of that, I think that’s a huge gift. There’s so many things that make up being a strong and faithful leader and pastor. So that’s exciting for me. When I think about what WTC offers and what the Vineyard UK and Ireland also have to bring, that pairing feels like this real sweet spot, you know?
VCUKI: We love WTC! Onto our next question, you spoke at the Vineyard Leaders Gathering this year on Evangelism and Ethnicity. We’ve already heard some of your heart behind this but why is this a topic you’re passionate about?
“We wanted to help a little kid feel like they’re in the story.”
Sarah: So, I’m Korean, American. When I was a secondary student, there was a lot of racial tension. So for me, stepping into a space where I was being formed and discipled in church and in my Christian fellowship on campus, where they were able to speak into the things that affected me in my ethnic background, and whether it was family, difficult experiences or racism – that was huge because it meant tat this faith that we have in Jesus, in the Scriptures actually speak right?
“I was actually seeing Christians who were faithful, of every ethnic background, really taking the Scripture seriously and taking the troubles of the world seriously, and saying ‘there’s good news’ into that. So, I personally saw the conversion that happened when you actually speak to people’s real lives.”
There’s no corner of our lives where Jesus, Holy Spirit, can’t speak into and transform and that had so much credible witness to me. I was actually seeing Christians who were faithful, of every ethnic background, really taking the Scripture seriously and taking the troubles of the world seriously, and saying, ‘there’s good news’ into that. So, I personally saw the conversion that happened when you actually speak to people’s real lives.
It takes a lot of faith to still think that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the father has something that is beautiful and redemptive and honouring. It’s a journey where I’m never going to stop learning because situations keep changing but I really care about the church.
VCUKI: That is wonderful insight, thank you. Finally, let’s talk about The Deliver Has Come which is being released this year. So exciting! It’s been a collaboration between you and your husband who created the beautiful illustrations for the story. So, firstly, tell us what inspired this book, and what’s the outline of the story.
Sarah: Yeah, my husband is a digital artist who’s an illustrator, and we’ve worked on a number of projects that led to really fruitful evangelism tools within varsities. And he took on the brunt of childcare during the early years of my PhD and during our five minutes of dreaming exercise he said, if I could be a children’s book illustrator, I’d be so happy. And a fire was started in me. I was like, ‘We’re gonna go find an agent. We’re gonna contact publishers.’ And we did. We really wanted to write a children’s book on Advent, that connects the story of Jesus coming with Israel’s larger story of anticipating the Messiah coming. So, we were daydreaming, and I said, ‘What if we made up a fictitious niece to the prophetess, Anna in Luke two?’ So we created her, her name is Annika. And we wanted to have her as a girl hearing stories about the deliverer coming from her Great Aunt Anna. We have her meet the angels and the shepherds. And she talks about the angel’s and the star. The Magi comes a little later, and then eventually she gets to meet Jesus. But, you know, she’s waiting, I think a lot of Advent is remembering God’s coming, remembering the waiting. That theme of waiting felt really important. And you know, what’s fun is the way my husband drew Annika, the main character. She had this fringe and so she kind of looks like our daughter. She was like, ‘Oh, she looks like me.’ And Shin drew the angels to be multiple ethnic backgrounds, because who knows what angels look like, right? But it’s all imagination. But his Art really draws in people, especially including people that aren’t Christian. It just captivates. It’s like, so bright and it glows and it shows emotion. So, yeah, I think we were thinking of this book as not just something for Christians to read with their kids, but something that you could share with anyone. And we really wanted our daughter to love, love, love the story. We wanted to help a little kid feel like they’re in the story.
VCUKI: That’s beautiful. And final question, what is your greatest hope for this book? What are you hoping for the story to inspire in children and adults who read it?
Sarah: Well, I hope it helps them get excited about telling the story of Jesus’ coming. I want kids to be able to read it with their friends, you know they have far fewer inhibitions than us. I really hope that it helps the Church in its witness and its evangelism. We talk at catalyst about children being at a really critical age where they’re exposed to and learning about Jesus and that stuff really matters. I really think we need all the body and I think we need children. We need to equip our children to be able to share about Jesus in a way that they’re excited about. I love the idea of a child saying, ‘Come look at this book with me,’ you know? And ‘here’s a book that I really like, I like the colours, I like the pictures,’ and that it could actually inspire spiritual conversations with people that might’ve been trickier without it. So at the end it’s not just that I want to read the book to my daughter, but also I hope it helps the church.
VCUKI: That’s so good. Do you have any final thoughts you’d like to share?
Sarah: I’m just really grateful to you and to Mark and to Vineyard UK and Ireland, for being willing to do the interview and being willing to support, and spread the word. There’s so much in the Vineyard that is just like home to us. And we’ve experienced so much good in the Vineyard in the UK. And we live in times where it’s really apparent the church needs to be the church in ways that respond to its context. So, yeah, I think I just feel a sense of gratitude for having this conversation with you, I don’t really have more than that.
“I really think we need all the body and I think we need children. We need to equip our children to be able to share about Jesus in a way that they’re excited about.”
The Deliverer Has Come Available in the UK from mid October
